>> i'm not so sure, john. i have to tell you that over the last two years, i think it was the republicans who showed an arrogance, a resistance to sort of reasonable compromise, but since this election, there have been -- i think the democrats are the ones who are really trying to rub it in and almost humiliate the republicans, and that's not going to get to a bargain. again, i think it has to be win-win. david walker's a magician at this kind of thing. there are creative solutions to this but it does take both parties. we truly wanted an agreement and there is -- you hear among some democrats right now and it's disturbing, that maybe we just ought to take it over the cliff, we'll score political points against the republicans, force their hand in the new year. that is a very, very dangerous risky path. >> that raises the question, david walker, do they get it? you say they're confused about the fiscal cliff and the long term challenge of a grand bargain but do they get it? are they stuck in their idealogical